The CodeBreaker Mindset™ Ft. Ashley Etienne, Etienne & Saint, Founder and CEO

The CodeBreaker Mindset™ Ft. Ashley Etienne, Etienne & Saint, Founder and CEO

Chitra Nawbatt (00:10) 

Welcome to The CodeBreaker Mindset™, where leaders share the unwritten rules for success. I'm your host, Chitra Nawbatt. Joining us today is Ashley Etienne, founder and CEO of Etienne & Saint. Ashley, welcome. Thank you for joining us. 

Ashley Etienne (00:24) 

Thanks for having me.

Chitra Nawbatt (00:25) 

You've been described as the queen of the War room. Most recently, you served as deputy assistant to President Biden and communications director for Vice President Harris. In the past, you've had senior leadership roles and communication for President Obama. Speaker Nancy Pelosi, after the white House, you founded your own strategic communications firm. You're also a CBS news political contributor and a senior advisor to PR firm Weber Shandwick.Take us on your journey to the White House.

Ashley Etienne (01:01) 

So I won't I won't spend so much time on it. But the story is that I didn't I when I was a young girl around the age of 6 or 7, my dad took us from the suburbs to the city. And I asked him why these people living differently in their conditions, different than my own and what we have in our neighborhood.

And my dad said, well, there's a lot of decisions that are made for them. And it was the part the for them that actually stuck with me as a young kid. And he said, if you want to make change, you need to go to Washington. Well, my dad wasn't a political contributor. We weren't a political family. So he had no idea on how to give me the roadmap to go to Washington.

Fast forward, I decided one day after I graduated college I want to go to Washington. Didn't do any internships because I had to work my way through college. And I wrote out five members of Congress wrote out why they should hire me, which is probably the beginning of my communications career. And I jumped on a plane, against the wishes of my family.

They wanted me to stay in Texas and be a teacher. Noble profession, but just wasn't for me. And knocked on their door and I told them why they should hire me. I got three offers. Decided to take the one from the member that was going to run as a Democrat for US Senate seat in Texas, which, you know how that goes.

We've tried that again and again, and it doesn't work out. And I knew he was going to lose. So that was going to create an opportunity which again, probably the beginning of my strategic career for me to quickly move up in the ranks in his office. So I chose his office. So I went from the front desk girl to, like, probably within a year, the head of communications for his, for his office.

And then after that, I just put my head down and worked and worked and worked. And when I did was really put myself in the center of the action. I run to the fire. That's just my reputation. It's just who I am. If it's hot, I want to be in the center of it. Typically, that's where the A-Team is.

That's where the best people are. And so that's where I developed my my reputation of being a crisis manager, because I just really ran to the fire in that adrenaline and that purpose, the purpose of the work, the mission driven, work that's right there in the center of the action is what really got me hooked on politics in Washington.

Chitra Nawbatt (03:11) 

So take us into the center of this action. And as part of that, I want to get into the rules of the game. Sure. So you're in the white House. Various different roles bring this to life for us. How did you learn and figure out the written and the unwritten rules to the communications game in the highest elected office in the United States?

The Rules of the Game

Ashley Etienne (03:31) 

I mean, it was a lot of just really studying. I'm a student of politics. I'm a student of people. I think what gives me an edge is, is that I've had a real experience. I immerse myself in a real life experience. My house in DC when I first moved to DC was in the hood. It was very intentional that I really stayed around people so that I understood people.

I understood people's motivations, not just our constituents, but also those people in those back rooms of the Capitol and the the, the, you know, the corridors of the West Wing understanding people's motivation, understanding what drives them, who they are, you know, what satisfies, that satisfies and what doesn't. All of that made me an incredible communicator. And of course, I've had the benefit of working for the most exceptional, transformative political figures in modern time.

So I just got a front row seat, a massacre class, and how to, how to be an effective communicator in these high pressure, high intense, you know, all steaks, everything on the, everything on the line environments from some of the best in the business.

Chitra Nawbatt (04:47) 

Give us an example. What is that written rule, and what is that unwritten rule that you learned when you're in that type of a role?

Ashley Etienne (04:55) 

Yeah, for me, I think the written rule is, and I know we'll get into this a little later. It's, you know, as I said to you, I, I'm not into spin. I don't spin reporters, I don't spin people. I'm honest. And I think when you're honest, you can sleep well at night, you know? But being an honest broker to me is one of the written rules that I learned early on.

And I think you can't ever go wrong with, the unwritten rule is, understanding people's motivations. It's really very Machiavellian in a lot of respects. It's, you know, it is transferable to any field you're actually in if you want to be successful. Communications is just a vehicle. But the basics and the foundation of how you operate and win in the game are very, you know, are similar to any and transferable to any industry.

So for me, I think the unwritten rule is understanding motivation and people's motivations. And when you combine the two being an honest broker, understanding people's motivation, I think that enables you to create a messaging framework, a communication strategy that actually penetrates and wins the day.

Chitra Nawbatt (06:10) 

How has that communications framework evolved? Because you talk about honest broker understanding people's intention. Historically, many of us are conditioned that when you receive information from a particular authority figure, whether it's mom and dad, whether it's a teacher, whether it's president, prime minister, a member of the clergy, you know, I'm back there or back in Pioneer Village, or maybe when I was a young child, information received from a certain authority figure.

You take it at face value. It is the quote unquote law. It is data. It is factual. Fast forward to where we are today.

Ashley Etienne (06:45) 

Fabulous society, fabulous environment. But I'm sorry, it was knowledge.

Chitra Nawbatt (06:51) 

But but please go ahead. Which is exactly to where we are today. Characterize where we are, how have we evolved from that? Where are.

Ashley Etienne (06:58) 

We. Yeah.

Chitra Nawbatt (06:59) 

And what is the framework now.

Ashley Etienne (07:02) 

Sure. Oh my gosh. I mean, it's such that such a big question. So where we are is, it's a fabulous environment. So much of the inputs that we're receiving are corrupted, if that makes any sense, to a degree corrupted. So when we think about inputs, you're thinking about, to your point, statements from elected officials, from authority figures to the media to mis and disinformation and social media platforms to AI, much of that has been corrupted by, nefarious figures and individuals, people that have bad motivations and intentions, intentions to manipulate intentions to falsely manipulate.

And so that is the environment that we're currently in and it really has, you know, had this incredibly corrosive effect on society. And what I mean by that is you have so many people now questioning even what their eyes have seen. I mean, look, at January 6th is an example of that. And if you were if we were to take a poll today, I'm almost willing to bet that at least 40% of the country would say that it wasn't a violent mob that stormed the Capitol to burn it down.

Right? That, you know, so so that's the environment that we're in, and it makes it very hard as a communicator to penetrate people with fact database information. You know, my former boss, Nancy Pelosi, used to always say this. Maybe this was 8 or 10 years ago on the Hill. The problem is between the two parties is we can't stipulate to a set of facts any longer.

If we can't stipulate to a set of facts, we both can agree that the sky is blue. How are we going to solve big problems like the climate crisis? How are we going to lead the world if we cannot agree and stipulate to a set of facts? Now you broaden that out and you look at society. If we can agree that those founding documents have relevance in today's society and should be our guiding principles for the nation, I mean, I think democracy was probably one of the biggest losers in November.

The principles of democracy, how do we move forward and lead the world if we can't agree any longer, if we can't agree that who once was our adversary, our national adversary, Siri now deserves the keys to the castle? How do we how do we make sense of all of that? And I think that is where we are right now.

And I think you're finding that a lot of people are checking out, you know, like what Kendrick Lamar said, they're turning the TV off. They're no longer, they're no longer, you know, apathy is sort of setting in. People are sort of checking out to some degree, and we haven't even gotten into your feeds and what people are getting in their feeds.

Right? I mean, the mis and disinformation, domestic and international, intentional, intentionally trying to drive actions, undermine the very fabric that binds this nation and our understanding of what's important and what is fact and what is it. So we're in a really incredibly tenuous time, in my opinion. I'm not so sure how we get out of this.

And you and I were talking about AI before and like the corrosive effect of, I mean, that's a whole nother, a whole nother, ball of wax that we've not seen realized to its fullest potential. But all of these inputs now are starting or to a degree, as I mentioned, have been corroded and are really, having all of, you know, incredible effects on how we see the world get stuck in your algorithms.

We have two different perspectives how we see the world, how we interact with each other, how we consider each other, who we select as our leaders. All of these things.

Chitra Nawbatt (11:16) 

Before we get more into the discerning the corrosion. You talked about artificial intelligence. I what's your assessment of what the next horizon of artificial intelligence will do to the information we see, read? Skim? So much of what's out there on any platform of social media, even traditional media AI being used to manipulate text, visuals, video, photos. So that's distorting changing reality. 

Talk about what the next horizon of AI will do to these images text, data, information to communication and how to navigate that.

Ashley Etienne (11:59) 

I mean, maybe we'll all be living in an alternate universe where there is no reality. I mean, it could get to that point. I mean, there is a reason why, President Biden said in his final address to the nation that we're missing. We're missing what's really going on right now that we're falling short of addressing the real problem.

The source of what's creating this divide in our nation and that is mis indifferent. Dismiss and disinformation. AI is a mechanism by which you do these things, but it's the things that are really having the greatest effect on society, how we deal with him, we're we're not there because we can't agree that is actually a problem. If you go to Capitol Hill, the conversation devolves into an issue of censorship, right, and First Amendment rights, and not an issue of whether or not we're, we're feeding our people accurate information in the health of our minds.

You know, also think about TikTok was a really great example of that, where I elected officials, voted, passed a bill based on national security reasons to ban TikTok, and now TikTok is still functioning in the United States. So it's it's an issue of we can't address it because we can't agree that we have a problem. I don't know if you watch the January 6th hearings, but there was a judge, Judge Leggett, Republican judge.

He was the one who told pence that he had to certify the election. And he made, an exceptional point, which was that in order. And I've been married and divorced. So I totally, sign off on the statement. I can corroborate the statement, but his point was you have to have two healthy parties at the table that can agree that we've got a problem in order to move forward together as a strong nation.

And right now, we don't have the two parties at the table that are agreeing that myths and disinformation, AI being a a, a vehicle, a mechanism by which that's happening that we need to regulate and we need to address. So it's just rampant. So I do believe that there will be a situation where, you know, and I keep trying to make a matrix sort of analogies, you know what I mean?

Like, but, I do believe there could be a situation where we're all just living in an alternate universe.

Chitra Nawbatt (14:49) 

You talked about two parties. Let's get into this notion of two parties as it relates to the giver of the information. And the receiver of the information are, the receiver of the information. So this notion of listener beware. And you talked about this, you touched on this around this corrosion listener beware as we receive communication, as we receive information from the highest offices in the land, whether it's the United States or other countries, how do we discern between what is data driven versus perception driven versus manipulation driven information?

Ashley Etienne (15:27) 

How do you discern? I mean, I think it the way you I don't think the rules on that change. I think you've got to have more than one source to corroborate the information. But I do believe if you ask me, how does my business work, I would say the answer is D all the above, right. I play at all times.

You got data. Some people rely on data. Some of it is real, some of it isn't. Numbers being thrown around, tossed around. These days, it's hard to figure out what's real, what's not. By the time someone in fact. In fact, CBS news contributor, their political news contributor reporter made the point that even now, fact checking has become politicized.

That is a problem. Okay, so so you got data, then you've got perception and you've got manipulation. And all of them are constant at play. And actors in my profession, in any profession, in fact, I mean, this applies in business are manipulating each one of those, leveraging each one of those to their own end and for their own benefit and gain.

It's happening everywhere you go. Now, how do we determine what is real and what is not? I think it's multiple sources. I think I also think I'm encouraging people now, just if we just narrow it down to the news to go out, to go beyond US media, most people don't even go beyond US media. Obviously you've got trade media that's really, really fact based, right?

Financial times, mostly the Wall Street Journal, right. Those are The Economist. Those are really fact based kind of publications. I think you can always obviously trust those. But as it relates to whether or not you're being manipulated and how that influences your perception, I think we need to start going outside of US media. I'll give you a good example. 

President gave his state of the Union address last night. Facts are facts. I would venture to say 98% of what he said was not true. But if you look at the US media coverage of it, the coverage is not about what he said corroborating it, fact checking it so that the media is decoding it for you, because that used to be the role of the media. 

They're no longer doing that anymore because fact checking, decoding it for you is now politicized. I don't want a lawsuit from the president. Why am I in that business anymore? They're not in that business anymore. So most of the coverage that came out of last night's state of the Union address was on Democrats protest and Al Green walking out rather than the substance of what the president said last night. 

To get back to your earlier point about the authority figure, I should be able to take at his word. Okay, so that's really the challenge is you've got all of these, what used to be, the purveyors of truth and, these vehicles and outlets to hold people accountable to the truth, hold them accountable to the truth, are no longer in that business anymore. 

So you got a big hole in a big gulf. What is it flooded with? I miss disinformation, but the, you know, junk on social media. Pick any platform. It's flooding the zone now. So now you don't know what's real. What is it real? Am I being manipulated? Is my perception of what's fact and what's data? What's not? 

Is this objective? Is it objective? It's very hard to figure out. But, Anyway. But I think it gets back to the fundamentals which have always been in existence, which is multiple sources, you know, sources you feel like you can trust that have credibility in those spaces and places and on those particular issues.

Chitra Nawbatt (19:40) 

But on that point, let's get into the pivots. Right. Because on that point, you know, competition is pivoting. And whether I am a parent, a community leader, an educator, a business person, an elected official, whoever I am, whatever stakeholder I am in the country, I'm out here to compete. I'm out here to win. I'm out here to make the best decisions here, not only in terms of who I elect, but my people process, my systems, the business decisions I make, the career decisions I make right.

The Pivots

Chitra Nawbatt (20:07) 

So you just outlined it. So if the traditional legacy news platforms, whether it's CBS or Fox or whoever, or the niche platforms or social media or the influencers, and there's varying degrees of truth telling versus story spin or story journalism, storytelling commentary. Sure.

Ashley Etienne (20:24) 

And we haven't even gotten into the modern media landscape, right. Which is podcasting. And, you know, so all.

Chitra Nawbatt (20:31) 

Your communication expert tours how help me be competitive, help me protect myself, how do I compete to get the best information so I can make the best decisions for whatever problems I'm solving for?

Ashley Etienne (20:44) 

Yeah. I mean, you know, the good thing is, I'm not responsible for all of that. I get only be responsible for what I write. And I say, and I leave with honesty. So, I mean, I think if you're a business, obviously you're going to mine for the best data, best research. Right? I don't think that changes. I think if you're trying to base it on government data in this modern time, you might have a hard time figuring it out. 

But you know what? Let's let me let me let me talk about the real the real pivot. And the real pivot is understanding your stakeholders. Who are my key stakeholders, developing an intimate relationship with those stakeholders. That way you sort of drown out all the noise you're getting right to the source of where you need to, of of what really matters to your bottom line, right?

What you're appealing to. So that really has to be the pivot, I think, to be a little provocative in this current time where everything is confused, up is down, down is up. What's real, what's not, I don't really know, but I just want to be entertained because I don't want to. I don't I don't want to stress myself out with what might be or might not be reality.

So I think, getting to understanding your stakeholders now, the reason why that's important to business is you always get jammed up by your stakeholders. Nobody. People aren't looking around the corner, watching their back, thinking about their stakeholders. That got people in a bind right after George Floyd died. It's getting people in a bind over the AI now.

Right? So, but the more intimate you are and understanding your stakeholders, I think that would indeed lead to greater yield and success, if that makes any sense. So maybe that's the new bit of it. We're still trying to figure it out.

Chitra Nawbatt (22:42) 

And what's a significant communications pivot that you led either voluntary or involuntary?

Ashley Etienne (22:50) 

Oh man. So, you know, I remember when I was the title the Queen of the War Room is is apt. Right. And so I love investigations. This is what I really do. My favorite game when I was growing up was clue. Like, who did it with what what what instrument, what room. So I did all the major investigations in Congress.

So Benghazi, the Russia investigation, Solyndra, Pickett impeachment. I ran the first impeachment war room. Like that's where I really, really perform best, if that makes any sense. I was going to say something that wasn't appropriate for me, I guess, whatever the list. And so we were I was running, somewhat point on the Russia investigation during Trump's first term, made a lot of great headway, revealed a lot of information, investigation was going, a lot of successes.

Then we came up against the Mueller report, failed, flopped. People didn't buy it, didn't work out well. And I only came back just to give you a little bit about my history from the white House to work in Congress so that I could run the opposition to Donald Trump. And so I felt like, this is it. We didn't do it.

We lost. It's over. This guy's Teflon. Nothing's sticking. I mean, now he's back. So, you know, maybe it didn't stick, but nevertheless, I was at a loss then, and I remember being in Pelosi's office and she says to me, listen, you've got to know your power. I brought you back for a reason. What we're fighting for in defending is bigger than any one individual.

You have a role in this. If you don't understand that, then I'm going to fire you. And of course, I don't want to get fired in, like, you know what I mean? And here I am finding myself crying because it's like everything I was conditioned to believe about this country was falling apart. The checks and balances nowhere to be found.

 Right? And, people holding up the truth, nowhere to be found. So anyway, we were just at a complete loss. And, and then the incident happened with the president calling Zelensky the president of Ukraine and asking for dirt on Joe Biden. And that was a pivot for us. Wasn't a big one, because the the message and the theme was always a threat to American democracy, not one individual.

To your point, this is not about an individual. This is about a systematic undermining of the integrity of our nation and what we believed in. So anyway, that was the sort of one of the biggest pivots. It was, okay, now we're pivoting to running to a legitimate substantive impeachment investigation of the president on national security issues, not on an affair.

 Right. Not on anything frivolous, but on national security basis. Did he uphold his did he violate his oath, all these things anyway? So that was, I would say, was probably my biggest pivot in my career. And at the end of the day, it was a historic effort. 60% of the the country believed our our evidence, our messaging, our framework, believe the president did something wrong in that situation, violated his oath of office, and it laid the foundation for Joe Biden to win the white House so that what I would say would be my biggest pivot.

Chitra Nawbatt (26:37) In what you described there. There are a lot of or some non-linear forces. So I want to get into the magic. How do you define serendipity and where did serendipity play a critical role for communication outcomes at the white House?

The Magic

Ashley Etienne (27:00) 

I would say in this particular situation, you want.

Chitra Nawbatt (27:02) 

To think in any situation? Oh.

Ashley Etienne (27:04) 

Yes. Since we've already gone down this path, I would say, You know what I do, what I do respect and admire about, Donald Trump is, is when he wants to be transparent, he will be very transparent. He doesn't hide the ball. And in that particular situation, what was serendipitous was we got the evidence that he placed the call and he released the tape.

He's like, you're absolutely right. I made the call and I asked for dirt on Joe Biden. I withhold, I withheld javelins to a US ally for my own political purposes. I did it, and here's the video. Here's the audio tape. In my mind, unlike in Pelosi's office, if you can like, picture it like, boom. Like, is he giving us the evidence?

This is unheard of. What defendant gives you the evidence to convict them. But he understood something which gets back to your previous point about data. Questions around the truth perception. Why would it can't be? Why would I do such a thing? Why would I give you the tape? And it's true. Something about that doesn't even add up in your mind, right?

People manipulation, all of those things were at play is that if that makes sense. So anyway, that was serendipitous like that. He gave us the audiotape, but I think he understood the environment that we currently live in where people are trying to decode all of that information. How do you how do you reconcile your mind, a defendant giving the prosecutor the evidence to convict them?

It doesn't happen that way. In fact, it's not even believable. I don't believe it. And that's kind of, the world that we're living in. And that's kind of how it all happened. So now we're constantly in this uphill battle trying to fight for, persuade people about what is true and what's not true.

Chitra Nawbatt (29:13) 

The irrationality and communication that we see. And by the way, serendipity can be both headwind and tailwind. Sure. Of course. So, your thoughts on the irrationality in the world around communication, the irrationality, I believe, will only continue. So we've not hit the rock bottom. Where is it? Where is it going in your perspective? Where is it going and what serendipitous forces, headwind or tailwind will, impact continue to impact the irrationality we see, especially in a non-linear way?

Ashley Etienne (29:49) 

This reminds me of one of my favorite lines and one of my I wouldn't say it's one of my favorite movies, but it's a line that stuck with me, and it's probably because it's so elementary but still not accepted. It's in Austin Powers. I don't know which movie it is, but it's when Doctor Evil was frozen and they defrost him.

 If that's a term I need to figure that out. And he comes back and he says to number two, what have you been doing since I've been gone? And number two says, well, I bought up all the media. And Doctor Evil says, well, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. Like, why would you do that? And doctor and number two says, if you control the inputs, you control the outputs.

And that's as simple as it is. I mean, to your point, I do with my own daughter, right? Be a good person. You're a great person. You're smart, you're brilliant. Then she performs in a good, brilliant way, right? So that's where we are. Where those inputs are not only corrupted, corroded, but people are intentionally corrupting and corroding them.

And now the in my opinion, the die is being cast. I'm not sure how we go back, especially if we cannot agree to the source of the problem. We are arguing on the margins, right?

Should social should Facebook be fact checking? Should they not be fact checking? Says I'm not. Is me you know, calling you a disparaging name. My First Amendment right. Is it not? All of those things now are I think, taking us, continuing to take us down a path because I think that movie is probably at least 20 years old, and it's not the first time we've ever had that heard that line before.

So I just think the die is cast. I think all of these forces are exacerbating, expediting, speeding up the process. I, you know, more and more disinformation from nefarious actors, foreign and domestic, you know, and so I don't know the answer to how we come back, especially if we don't agree that it's a problem. And try convincing a young person that's lived their entire life on a device of what's real and what's not real, who's getting their information off a TikTok from some social media influencer that what they're receiving is a bad input.

I mean, that's a hard thing to do in this environment. And then what's a good input anymore? I mean, if these flagship, you know, Tiffany type outlets are no longer fact checking the headlines or about the show and not about the substance, what does this leave us? What does this leave us with?

Chitra Nawbatt (32:56) 

Ashley? Finally.

Ashley Etienne (32:57) 

Yes.

Chitra Nawbatt (32:57) 

What are we going to be.

Ashley Etienne (32:58) 

Limited in the matrix? I don't know okay.

Chitra Nawbatt (33:00) 

What's your well on that point? What's your advice on how to cultivate The CodeBreaker Mindset™?

Ashley Etienne (33:07) 

My advice is to, I think, I think having. Having a sense of, yourself, the world around you, where you fit people's motivations and intentions. I think those are the keys to decoding just about any any situation that you find yourself in. Understanding, intimate understanding of self, the world around you and the people that move it.

I think if you understand that you can decode just about any situation, and I think the only way you get there is with an intimate engagement across all of those things. Now, what's stopping us or these devices, the stress of the world, the pace of the world? I think all of that is making it harder to decode because we're no longer connecting, right.

It goes back to if you are sort of a political scientist, like bowling for Columbine, right? Like bowling alone, you know, those books that are written about how we're, as a society becoming rubber, putting them, becoming less connected. And I think for that reason, we don't know each other. We're suspicious of each other. We don't know what to believe, who to believe, all of those things.

So that's what I would say. I think there is a formula to almost decoding just about any situation.

Chitra Nawbatt (34:51) 

Ashley. Yes. Thank you so much for joining us. 

Chitra Nawbatt (34:55)

Thank you for supporting The CodeBreaker Mindset™. For more episodes go to www.ChitraNawbatt.com to like and subscribe. Connect with me on social media, @ChitraNawbatt.